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scamA group of two dozen people (and growing) represented by Advokatfirman Rise & Co AB (Stockholm) is bringing a class action lawsuit against Swedish Bitcoin firm KnCMiner, the one-time premier manufacturer of Bitcoin mining hardware.

There are a range of issues for the court to consider, but the one CCN is most intimately familiar with is the one that our source, a member of this class action lawsuit, who told us about his experience with KnC. Here is a pruned (moderately edited) version of his lengthy story:

I read in the local papers that a Swedish company was going to make an ASIC. I called the number listed, but thought it might be another scam. Then they delivered the Jupiter (October batch) and I was cursing my luck. That machine was awesome! I immediately got in line for the next machine, the Jupiter (November batch) and loved it, I only regretted not ordering more of them. I made my money back on that plus then some! I eventually bought 6+ more machines.

I had nothing but praise for KnC, they were from my town and they were the darling of the bitcoin industry, actually making machines and delivering on time while people like Butterfly Labs were still cheating customers.

When they announced their next batch of miners, things turned sour, and KnC started to show their true colors. A lot of customers decided to take the “Super Jupiters” instead of waiting and we (on the forums) were shocked when the pictures hit of what the “Super Jupiters” actually were: second hand machines that were running in KnC’s data centers, coated with dust, barely working.


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I was thinking of cancelling my order (like a lot of folk on the forums) but then KnC announced the “Hash while you wait” as well as the bonus machine so I, and a lot of folk on the forums stuck it out. Finally got my hands on my Neptune miner (delivered past the due date) and had a few problems. KnC worked to resolve them (although not as fast as before, now we had to wait weeks for KnC to first “analyze” what was wrong and then send a replacement). It was better than what those poor people got with their “Super Jupiters” anyway.

Remembering how well they delivered when they first came to market, I jumped on the bandwagon in the first 5 minutes of when they announced they were going to make a Scrypt miner, I bought into the Titan.

I was one of the first to get a Titan, and had probably the most problems. It would not hash over 30MHs, well below the 300 promised, with constant restarts as a bonus. I remember getting it on a Friday, it sat in the corner, powered down, till Monday when I started calling KnC and writing on the forums. […] What KnC sent us was a miner that was clearly not even half-baked, the software was pre-alpha (I’m a programmer myself). […] It was not till two weeks or so later that KnC released an update and I could finally hash a bit without the constant restarts, but still well below the 300MHs promised.
My miner was so bad, and I made so much noise about it, that KnC eventually remote connected to my computer and made a few software changes to get my miner not to shut off and even start to hash a bit.

I was still one of the lucky ones, as I had signed up in the first few minutes for the Titan, my machine had a 1 year warranty […] for a clearly less-than-half baked machine.

After a while with the firmware updates and over-clocking the machines I started to get the promised 300MHs, or close enough (290MHs-295MHs) so when I saw the offer to change to a Batch 2 Titan or stick with the Neptune as the bonus machine, I figured by Batch 2 (remembering the old Jupiter machines) they would have fixed everything. I chose a Batch 2 Titan for my bonus machine.

All the while we were having huge problems with their machines (fires, burnt out cores, random shutdowns, etc.). [At the same time], KnC was making press/twitter etc releases about how happy their customers were with the junk they had sent them. A bit after that they took away the option for a Batch 2 Titan, but I, and others have emails that we sent KnC asking for confirmation that we were getting a Batch 2 Titan, and always got a reply saying, yes, its confirmed.

Then I finally got the infamous email telling me that due to “technical issues” I was not going to get my Batch 2 Titan, take a Neptune or take 3 BTC. That was the final straw. Do KnC value their Titans at just 3 BTC now after [charging] 10,000 USD for them? (The price of BTC was around $230 when we got the “offer”, so a total of ~700 USD.) This was such a blatant bait and switch and I (and quite a few others) were furious. KnC was only doing this because they had gotten so used to cheating people and getting away with it. I was determined that I was going to do something about it.

After more than 48 hours, KnC had failed to provide comment for this article. However, the law firm did confirm to CCN that the case was active. Magnus Daar, a partner at the firm, said:

I can confirm that there are three pending class action suits against KnCMiner and at least 24 individual actions.

The lawyer also confirmed for us that our contact was indeed a client.

Also read: Is KnCMiner Finally Issuing Titan Refunds?

The Big Deal

15-kncWhat’s the big deal, some might wonder. At least they didn’t send nothing, or essentially offer nothing, as was the case with Butterfly Labs. The answer is simple: the big deal is that if a company charges someone $10,000 for something and then doesn’t deliver, it is in their best interest (if they don’t want to get sued) to return that $10,000. By whatever means necessary.

Our contact was not the only one to have a horrible experience with KnCMiner who reached out. Another had no problem with us using his name for this article. He is Chandra Das and he resides in Florida. He has not yet joined the class action suit against KnC, hoping, as he said to this writer, “KnC would get their act together soon.”

But, to be blunt, that seems unlikely. KnC is presently offering Chandra 6.5 Bitcoins to refund him for an order he placed last June. As he put it:

The price of bitcoin last summer was about $600. US dollar price for a Mini Titan with shipping to the US was $3,897.60. On June 17, 2015 payment of this US dollar amount in bitcoin would be about 6.5 bitcoin. […] KnCMiner now proposes to repay 6.5 bitcoins as a “full refund” for an order totaling $3,897.60. Current price on Bitstamp at time of this message is $216. A refund of 6.5 BTC would not be a full refund, but would be about 36% of the amount paid ten months ago.

It may be hard to believe that a company that has been so enriched by this community is simultaneously so willing to treat its members with such disregard. It seems that somewhere along the way they lost sight of their mission of “securing the world’s most trusted blockchain” and moved on to “securing the linings of KnCMiner’s pockets.”

KnCMiner Going Strong

Despite having no less than 24 customers dissatisfied enough to involve the courts, KnCMiner has not cut and run in the sense that they are still doing business. While they failed to respond to CCN’s requests for comment on this article, even insofar as giving us a bland piece of advertising jargon, last month on the 11th of March they updated their news category with an explanation of why they had removed their web store.

We’ve finished shipping most of the hardware we’ve had on order and the final deliveries of the Titan and other bonus offers will ship over the next few weeks. […] As we’re moving away from mail-order sales we’ve removed the web shop from our domain and we’re switching systems for support, accounts, log-in, mobile access and more.

This last bit will be interpreted by the burned customers out there in only one way: they’re trying to delete the past and move forward. Fortunately, Bitcoiners are savvy record keepers, by and large, and those who have been done wrong have all the evidence they’ll need to successfully bring suit against KnC.

In the case of Chandra Das, it seems a matter of time before he decides to join in the case against KnC. He had the following advice to offer to newcomers who might cross paths with KnCMiner:

KnCMiner has thankfully moved out of the mining hardware business to offer their cloud mining services. Taking the decision to purchase cloud hashing requires due diligence and a degree of trust in the service provider. The customer’s trust is an invaluable commodity. KnCMiner would be wise to salvage their early customers’ trust, if they have hopes of returning on investments from the venture backers of their cloud hashing.

Swedish law indicates that prison sentences up to six years long can be imposed for the crime of fraud, and presumably in situation with this many victims, this could translate into a lot more time, depending on how the case were pursued. It would seem that Swedish authorities might take more interest in the doings of KnC if and when the class action suit against them is successfully won.

Images by Shutterstock and Pixabay.

If you are a victim of KnC’s business practices or, conversely, a satisfied customer, and you feel this story has left something out, please contact the author right away at [email protected] CCN will be happy to do follow-ups on this matter as needed.

Additionally, those interested in joining the class action suit against KnC may contact the advokat, Magnus Daar, at [email protected] / +46 (0)708 86 81 61. You can also visit this website for more information.

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Posted by P. H. Madore

P. H. Madore has been publishing since 2003. Tip: 1phmMcubFy298wujNFj6hQ1gctUBFovmL or 0xEDc20cc40cfb0CCBf67399c41B2891192a748a9A -- Visit me on Steem: https://steemit.com/@phmadore and check out my weekly report on the ICO madness: https://icoweeklynews.com

67 Comments

  1. Matthew Pappas 03/12/2015 at 15:34

    Most of the comments below are full of s*it, its like they didn’t read the article. KNCMiner IS A FU*KING SCAM, WAKE THE F*CK UP PEOPLE. Bait and switching! Lying about delivery dates! Delivering half completed or broken crap that overheats and burns peoples homes down! Not refunding when being called out that they have failed in every expectation!

  2. Lion ThePhoenix 19/05/2015 at 02:41

    doesnt trustless mean u dont need to trust third parties

  3. Brian Rammien 08/05/2015 at 20:29

    I’ve asked for a refund since oct, and still don’t have a working unit after a board RMA, it’s still broken. They refused refunds. Who is getting a refund, and how? I’d like to know, i’ve asked them 10 times and answer has been no.

  4. Brian Rammien 08/05/2015 at 20:21

    How did you get a refund, they have refused me 10 times in email.

  5. Fank is talking out the side of his neck.

  6. that’s great news! it’s funny because at this point it’s a good feeling just to get back was was yours in the first place.

  7. Holy shit, for the hell of it right after I hit post I checked my wallet and it has the 17 bitcoin, kickass. Thank you so much for replying, I had no idea they finally sent it. Typical for KNC, don’t even bother to send an email telling me the refund was sent lol. Glad this nightmare if finally over.

  8. Yeah they finally agreed to refund the full value, but I still haven’t been paid. They told me they working on paying the refund asap lol. I had the same thing, emails back and forth since January. They should have at least told us what was going on, months of silence just made the whole thing worse. Glad you got the full refund, hopefully they’ll get around to sending my bitcoin soon.

  9. I had the exact same thing happen, mini titan. I complained to them about the 6.4 BTC I bought for $600 or so per BTC to pay for their $4000 hardware. I asked why I shouldn’t get a refund in BTC based on the dollar amount I originally spent. They refunded me the 17 BTC they owed me in less than 24 hours. my original order was June 19th 2014. I feel lucky I got my money back. this happened over last 2 days, maybe they are having a change of heart. I hope you get your money back like I did. I probably have about 10-15 emails with them back and forth since January 2015.

  10. Chris Alun Lloyd 29/04/2015 at 07:54

    Borrowing money to buy a miner in a volatile market where the spread is so high you can fit a picture of an A380 through it when your bored… Does anything else need to be said?

  11. KNC is good in the sense that they have invested heavily into Bitcoin. If they take advantage of customers many of which are probably new to Bitcoin those customers will leave bitcoin forever. Most people who don’t understand Bitcoin already think it’s some kind of scam, having the most prominent mining company screwing over customers just reinforces that misconception about Bitcoin.
    KNC might not be evil, they should have just been more transparent to their customers. Even bad news is better than no news, and they took thousands of dollars from customers and then gave little to no information or updates when there were delays.
    They don’t seem to plan on selling miners to the public anymore, at least not preorders. So if they clear up the problems with current customers and just mine Bitcoin strengthening the blockchain then they will be great for bitcoin.
    And to be fair there have been much worse companies to scam users selling mining equipment, some just outright scams with no intention to deliver anything. KNC is probably the best known mining company so with that prominence comes responsibility, at least in my opinion otherwise the whole industry suffers. If you can’t trust the “best” who can you trust? I think that’s why it’s important KNC changes the business practices that have caused all these problems, it’s bad for bitcoin because they have such a large presence in Bitcoin.

  12. Not always easy knowing whom to trust in a trustless system.

  13. I troll for chums and chum for trolls. The way some go on about their ‘absolutes’ indicate that they are one to be ignored. Like a dog with a bone MB will shake it senseless.

  14. In NJ deals with BTC are considered barter and both parties get to pay tax on the value of the item each received. So NJ already has a different take on this. I bet that with a return NJ would once more want the tax of each items worth again since it would constitute a different, new deal. Can not exclude the State from their cut of the action.

  15. How is KnC bad for Bitcoin? KnC is the fifth largest adder of blocks to the block chain. I was led to believe that mining and adding blocks was everything to Bitcoin.

  16. KNC has decided to do the right thing and refund the full value of the order. Looks like KNC isn’t dishonest as I thought, and Frank is still just as big as an idiot as I thought!

  17. Frank has absolutely no idea what he’s talking about… if anyone is making the crypto community look like idiots, it is guys like him.

  18. Wrong bitpay moved to amsterdam! to avoid the US tax laws
    KNC is in europe

  19. Guess what euro trash, I didn’t order a Neptune. In the EU it’s not legal to sell a product, not deliver it and not offer a refund in a timely matter. It’s also not legal to offer a refund and then not process the refund in a timely matter.

    Even though Sweden is similiar in many ways to lawless third world countries, it’s still not legal to lie to customers to get their money and then hold the money for as long as they want and deliver nothing. They cannot bait and switch, selling a Titan and then offering a Neptune instead.

    The laws are different though, in the U.S. it would be a civil suit. In Sweden they will go to jail.

  20. You could have repleced it for a neptune! , now you get back your trade in BTC…
    as I explained BTC is not money so the trade is locked in time , this means prece change does not matter! , KNC offerd you a better solution you did not want it!

    You made the stupid mestake thinking you had a case ,,, in europe this kind of claims do not work because the common law is diffrent from US common law.

  21. You took the short bus to school and yet you still managed to become a wannabe internet lawyer, congrats.
    Bitcoin was used to transfer of money, the product was not priced in or sold for Bitcoin but for fiat. My lawyer is a Swedish lawyer, and he disagrees with you but you’re the the genius. I hear Sam Cole likes little boys, maybe if you’re nice to him he’ll f*ck you for free.

  22. YOU PAYED with bitcoin!
    This means that you payed with a service for a service ,,, like you payed with sex , or a bike , or a house or a tv or a bitcoin!
    for the law BTC , TV , sex , house , bike are all the same it is a commodity TRADE!
    so when you payed FE with 11.1243876 btc that was the trade , for price in $ , it could aslso has been 120 min of sex or 1 blue bmw car , etc you get it??????
    bitcoin IS NOT MONEY!
    so when they return you the same commodity like 11.1243876 BTC it is CORRECT , like they return you the car or the house or the TV…
    and in case of sex you woukd have been f*cked annyway because that’s Iligal in the US , not in sweden :)

  23. WHY DID THEY PRICE EVERYTHING IN DOLLARS? WHY IS MY INVOICE FROM BITPAY FOR FIAT?
    And according to my lawyer it’s completely false that the company can decide to refund using whatever value is the cheapest. They refund the price they charged on their website, which was FIAT. Nowhere on the KNC website was the price in Bitcoin, only during checkout when you used Bitpay. BITPAY convered it to fiat, ask them.
    KNC also took bank wires as payment, just more proof the sale was in fiat not Bitcoin. Anyway if you want to defend KNC, you’re kind of a lowlife so why don’t you go find a dog and kick it.

  24. Who said anything about borrowing money fanboy? No I paid for a Titan, not an obsolete USED Neptune from their datacenter 6 months after they were supposed to deliver what I paid for. Under swedish law it’s okay for companies to gamble for free on the price of Bitcoin using their customers money?

  25. Milly Bitcoin 22/04/2015 at 05:37

    You are a real nut job. I never said I proclaimed a love for regulation, I was just pointing out the discrepancy of complaining about one type of regulation while requesting regulators take action when things go wrong.

  26. you paied in BTC by bitpay! you don’t know if KNC coverted it to fiat!
    and if if it was the case it does not matter , in sweden the tiime of transaction is leading for the conversion price ,, this means that if BTC drops KNC can still pay you back in BTC for the price it was at transaction time ,,, they offered a neptune , and you probably did not want it , if you borrowed your money for your miner iam sorry , it was stupid , never borrow money for a gamble!
    but you can not blame knc for it…

  27. is it criminal to develop a miner and find out that you cant develop it within the promised time table?
    I don’t think so.

  28. Developers can NEVER make promises like that.
    taping out a chip design normaly takes years.

  29. They offered an obsolete miner 6 months after they promised delivery of the Titan. KNC was paid in fiat by Bitpay, and they still aren’t actually paying refunds they just finally announced they won’t be delivering the miners ordered.
    They also refunded Neptune customers in fiat value of Bitcoin not the actual amount of bitcoin sent for purchase. They are doing this now just because they are no longer selling miners to the public and assume nobody will fight back.

    If companies can choose to refund you in either fiat or bitcoin after holding your money hostage for a year then companies of all sorts will pop up with a simple business plan of selling vaporware to collect bitcoin and get a risk free gamble on the price of bitcoin rising so they can refund in fiat and if not refund the bitcoins.

  30. basicly blaming the pricedrop of BTC and LTC ,, if the price was + 500% nobody would had blmamed , but if you BORROW money to buy a miner , yes then you are fucked , because of the price drop.
    trying to get it back, because of the price drop , NOT because of KNC failing!

  31. You can not blame KNC for the price drop of BTC or LTC…. and knc offerd neptunes as alternative.

  32. KNC took bank wires for payment too, do you think we need more regulation for bank wires?
    You proclaiming your love for regulation and control despite it having nothing to do with KNC or the topic of the article is why nobody listens to you.

  33. Milly Bitcoin 22/04/2015 at 04:28

    That is ridiculous which is why many people don’t listen to Bitcoiners.

  34. You since you replied. And I can’t ignore on disqus, my bad.

  35. You’re right, I see the light. There are bad people so everyone should suffer. Thanks, now I see why KNC should be allowed to screw over it’s customers and why regulating bitcoin is a good idea. To get a bitcoin address you should have to submit your fingerprints first, because some people use bitcoin for bad things.

  36. Milly Bitcoin 22/04/2015 at 03:49

    Who cares who you have ignore?

  37. Milly Bitcoin 22/04/2015 at 03:47

    You are correct if you are talking about bitlicense and such. For the most part most of the complaints about Bitcoin exchanges are already covered by exiting law and NY should have done a gap analysis to see if any kind of new regs are needed before proposing new regs.

  38. Milly Bitcoin 22/04/2015 at 03:44

    I don’t know of anyone trying to regulate Bitcoin. The only proposed regulation is when Bitcoin interfaces with the legacy financial system. If you are trying to say money transfer laws are somehow fundamentally different then laws about theft then you are misguided. There are laws about business registration so they know where to find them if things like theft occur. These “regs” or “laws” are put in place to prevent bad actors even though everyone who is required to register did not do something wrong.

    Maybe those laws/regs are not applied in a good way but that is a different issue. The teenagers and cultists who go around saying money transfer laws are “immoral,” etc. are the kind of people that make Bitcoiners look ridiculous.

  39. It’s sad that milly has to derail a topic about KNC miner screwing over it’s customers with nonsense that has nothing to do with the topic. I used to respect your posts, now you’re on ignore.

  40. Do you know what a “regulation” means? it means to control and limit. Why do people think regulating Bitcoin is going to protect anyone? You’re simple minded for thinking Bitcoin is responsible for fraud. Every possible means of transferring value is used by evil people to defraud. Regulate fraud not bitcoin..better yet go ask your mommy for permission before you spend any money so you don’t have to think for yourself to avoid scams and fraud.

  41. It has nothing to do with regulating bitcoin Milly. If someone took cash from me and didn’t deliver they are breaking the law. Doesn’t mean I’m asking for regulators to control cash. If people steal or defraud that’s already regulated there’s no need to specifically regulate bitcoin or pass new laws specifically for bitcoin. The laws on the books already protect consumers.

  42. The pricing was NOT in Bitcoin, it was priced in fiat U.S. dollars. The amount of bitcoin it cost depended on the current price. The only way to know how many bitcoins a product cost was to add it to your cart and checkout. Once you got to the payment Bitpay gives you an address and an amount of Bitcoin to send and you have to send them within 30 minutes to complete the purchase or the amount of bitcoins your order costs could change.
    The invoice is also in dollars, as was the “order paid” in my account on their website before they closed that part of their website so customers can’t login anymore.

  43. I ordered a mini Titan batch 2 last June for just under $4,000 when bitcoin was $652. Now after almost a year with no delivery and no information they tell me they are issuing a refund, but only of the bitcoins paid. So they took my money, delivered nothing, delayed 6+ months after delivery was promised when they took my money, and now offer me $0.34 cents on the dollar. They can’t even give an estimate for when they would send me the 1/3 refund, so one can only assume they are waiting to see if bitcoin goes down further so they can screw me out of more money.
    I absolutely, 100% am pursuing justice and am willing to spend 2x the original price of the Titan for legal fees.
    KNC isn’t just bad for customers gullible enough to send them money, they are bad for Bitcoin!

  44. Milly Bitcoin 21/04/2015 at 21:39

    I know you can’t pick or choose, that is what I am saying. Regulations are normally promulgated under the authority of laws passed by representatives by people appointed by representatives. There is little or no distinction between laws and regs.

  45. Your point is invalid. We’re not picking and choosing.

    Criminal law already exists. It would be the same law if it was crypto, fiat, or barter.

    Regulation, and crime, are not the same thing.

    Regulation inserts a 3rd party into the middle of your transaction, dictating to you how you can, or can’t, make the transaction, before the transaction even takes place.

    Criminal law takes place after the transaction, and is about enforcing the law that both parties of the transaction have to hold up their ends of the transaction, or it becomes fraudulent.

    You are mixing up 2 different legal concepts, as if they are the same thing. They are not.

    Laws are passed by our representatives. Regulations are not.

  46. Milly Bitcoin 21/04/2015 at 13:06

    The point is that you can’t pick and choose what is regulated because it is convenient for you. This is why Bitcoiners often come off as incredibly naïve.

  47. The difference is, we are against regulation that limits what (and how) we can spend _our_ money on.

    This issue isn’t at all about regulation, but about crime… in this case, fraud and/or theft.

    The medium for payment isn’t at all relevant.

    I certainly don’t want government regulation that interferes with my spending my monies on whatever I choose to spend it on, in whatever quantities, and how I do that spending… but existing criminal laws are applicable when someone doesn’t hold up their end of the transaction, regardless if the form of payment was BTC or USD or JPY or SLL or AU or whatever means of payment was used.

    Milly, you’re off the mark here.

  48. Greg Matson 18/04/2015 at 21:54

    F U C K
    U
    C
    K

  49. Milly Bitcoin 18/04/2015 at 13:27

    Oh, another “protip” from a teenager.

  50. BillYeager 18/04/2015 at 13:08

    Yes, sure Milly, my reasoned criticism of your post which clearly defines your erroneous position on this topic is evidence of me being an irrational ‘foaming-at-the-mouth cultist’. Pro-tip kiddo, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

  51. Milly Bitcoin 18/04/2015 at 12:01

    Your articles incorrectly show up on list of Bitcoin-related articles. I will mark them as irrelevant. A lot of worthless agenda-pushing gets listed as news.
    As for your teenage nonsense about “trolling,” I don’t care.

  52. Milly Bitcoin 18/04/2015 at 10:46

    I see your position here:

    https://disqus.com/home/discussion/cryptocoinsnews/bitmine_facing_multiple_lawsuits_for_defrauding_customers/#comment-1950553843

    Government should only regulate when it is convenient for you or when you lose. Time to grow up and join the real world.

  53. Milly Bitcoin 18/04/2015 at 10:42

    I have already explained the issue and why it relates to Bitcoin. The cultists claim that Bitcoiners are against regulation but the evidence shows that is wrong. You can read Erik Vorhees’ fantasy of the claimed reasons behind the bitclicense but the truth is that many Bitcoins have asked for regulation after things go wrong. This includes Mt. Gox, Bitfloor, MyBitcoin, Inputs.io, mining companies and on and on. Whatever point you are trying to make in your comments is unclear and it appears you are another foaming-at-the-mouth cultists who gets upset when there are cracks in the fantasy agenda.

  54. Milly Bitcoin 18/04/2015 at 10:33

    While I won’t use the term “trolling” since that is for teenagers, your articles are next to worthless. They have little to do with Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, you are promoting a fantasy political agenda. When something goers wrong people naturally go to regulators whether it is Mt. Gox, miners, or whatever. I have dealt with regulators and I got the ruling last year from FinCEN about Bitcoin mining. they did not consider Bitcoin “a mere haven of criminality,” They considered it a new technology that can be used in a variety of ways and that position is reflected in their public statements. You just make up stuff that goes along with your fantasy agenda. Every time I see your name on an article I know it is going to be total nonsense.

  55. BillYeager 18/04/2015 at 10:16

    This is not about a cryptocurrency transaction or even the cryptocurrency industry, Milly, as I have already pointed out to you, this is about a hardware vendor reneging on the promises made at the time of sale and its customers looking to hold it to account for that failure. Come on, be honest now, you’d be respected more for acknowledging you got a bit trigger-happy on this one, than by insisting on digging yourself in deeper and over-reaching on your continued attempt to associate the issue with Bitcoin or ‘Bitcoiners’ opinions on regulatory environments. As for your criticism of my use of the term ‘troll’, that’s not exactly a rebuttal to the point I made, now, is it? If you were ‘trolling’ you could at least give the impression you are smart enough to know your original comment was a false association, as it is you now imply your swing-and-a-miss “Another example . . .” was actually borne of ignorance about the topic being discussed.

  56. P. H. Madore 18/04/2015 at 09:52

    You’re trolling, though, since your statement, as has been pointed out, has nothing to do with this situation. Regulation is not always a bad thing as any sane person knows that most markets monumentally fail to regulate themselves. However, regulation can be a bad thing, and the fears of Bitcoiners in the US when Bitcoin first got on the government’s radar was that they would regulate it out of existence. These were legitimate fears, even as recently as last summer regulators high-ranking officials considered Bitcoin to be a mere haven of criminality and nothing more.

    But, again, the practices of companies producing hardware or goods fall under the regulatory jurisdiction of various governments and governmental agencies, regardless of their purpose or how they are paid for. If governments selectively enforce their regulations, that only confirms what the minority you choose to pick on are always saying: government is corrupt.

  57. P. H. Madore 18/04/2015 at 09:35

    I believe at the time of the sales, the price was listed in USD but payable in BTC, as is common practice. I could be wrong.

  58. Milly Bitcoin 17/04/2015 at 20:15

    Your comment isn’t coherent. I am pointing out that most Bitcoiners are normal people who ask for regulators to step in when something goes wrong.

  59. Orchideric 17/04/2015 at 19:49

    (Face in hand)
    It’s all true. I was there for all of it.

  60. doubledotdot 17/04/2015 at 18:35

    And this is clearly a call for that. :rolls eyes: Just cause a small group of tin foil hat wearers work your panties into a bunch you should apply it to anyone interested in bitcoin. Good logical thinking!

  61. Milly Bitcoin 17/04/2015 at 18:03

    I am pointing out that many Bitcoiners want regulators involved in their transactions. That contradicts the small minority of Bitcoiners who are cultists and make a number of nonsense statements about regulators or what Bitcoiners think of them. As for your reference to “troll,” that is a term used by teenagers when someone says something they don’t like or don’t agree with.

  62. BillYeager 17/04/2015 at 17:55

    Oh Milly, you are so desperate to troll bitcoin you are even resorting to bizarrely associating the failure of a hardware company to deliver on the sale contract, with Bitcoin. The issue is absolutely nothing to do with Bitcoin, it is solely about KnC charging customers for hardware they failed to deliver according to the originally promised specifications regarding the delivery date and performance capabilities.

  63. I wonder if sam cole will fit into standard issue prisonwear

  64. Regarding the refund amount, if the pricing was specified in Bitcoin, then getting the same amount back in Bitcoin is reasonable, even if the Bitcoin exchange rate went down. If it was specified in U.S. Dollars, then getting the same amount back in U.S. Dollars is reasonable, even if the Bitcoin exchange rate went up. This is no different from any other currency conversion in exchanges – it only gets more attention because Bitcoin’s exchange rate tends to be more volatile.

    That said, unknown before me is likely correct – always having planned for a private mine, and their mine is doing quite well, using consumer sales initially to boost their cash inflow – and KnC have been making some – pardon the language – ‘dick moves’ lately to their past (consumer) customers.

  65. Whats new with them, there intention from the start was to get what they could off the public then go private, i have nothing nice or good to say about them, i hope they get whats coming to them.

  66. Milly Bitcoin 17/04/2015 at 15:26

    Another example of Bitcoiners asking for more regulators to get involved in the ecosystem.

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